Sorry for back-to-back comments, but I had to say something about this.

I'd like to know if Pastor Wright actually read this book, since Dawkins devotes a whole chapter to this subject, beginning on page 308.

The chapter is entitled "What about Hitler and Stalin, weren't they atheists?"

Bryant is an avid reader, but right at this moment we can't answer your question. Get back to you on this.

Thank you.

"a man-invented ideology"

Religions are the biggest man-invented ideologies of all time...

Dawkins argument in that chapter is that Hitler and Stalin didn't do evil things in the name of atheism, where as there have been many evil things done in the name of religion. That's partially true. But, while it's true that there have been followers of various religions, including Christianity, that have done some evil things, that doesn't make God evil, or true followers of Christ more evil or dangerous.

Why did Hitler and Stalin do the things they did? Was it because they were atheists? Being an atheist does not equate to being evil. There are some people who do not believe in God who are as moral or more so than some people who do. But, because Stalin and Hitler believed that they were the supreme leaders, they could do whatever they wanted. In their world view they had no one to answer to. Dawkins says Hitler may have been a believer in some sense, and could have been expressing hatred of Jews as Christ-killers that some espoused. Doubtful. He also admits that in later years Hitler "expressed virulently anti-Christian views", and in earlier writings may have been "not really religious but just cynically exploiting the religiosity of his audience."

Dawkins also admits both men were evil. But, how can he say what is evil? If it's his opinion, why is his opinion any better than Hitler or Stalin? They thought what they were doing was good, as did the 911 terrorists, as did the crusaders, as did David Koresch. It comes down to world view. If your world view says that nature is all there is, and nothing more, that can lead to some pretty bad things. In many cases, the only thing keeping people from stealing, raping, killing or mass murder is the threat of being caught. That's the only authority holding them back. In the case of a Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot, they were the only authority, and could do whatever they liked as long as they kept their underlings in line.

Here's a simple thought experiment. You can live in one of two neighborhoods. The houses have no locks. One is populated by bible-believing Christians, and the other by atheists. Which neighborhood would you rather live in?

Atheists.

Studies show that atheists are much less likely to commit crime, have higher income and education, so I'd pick the atheists.

Ricky,

Very nicely put. Although I have never read Dawkins, I really like the perspective you put on the situation.

In a neighborhood with no locks....I think I might go with atheists. Christians tend to try to be "too loving" of neighbors. They'll probably want to come over to chat too often, haha.

Really? I don't know who I'd want as neighbors.

Ricky, That is a very thoughtful and intelligent comment you made. I agree with what you said. However, I find the why in the Bible. Man sins because he is evil. He is not evil because he sins. The doctrine of original sin, properly understood, explains that none are righteous in our nature. Without the rebirth of our soul, we remain dead in sin. Not just sick, but DEAD.

As for whether "God is a delusion", the Apostle said that "if we are wrong in our belief, we are to be most pitied". But, he also said we are not wrong. I believe. Dawkins does not. No problem for me.

Erik,

1 - Where are the studies/statistics that back your statements?
2 - Has it occurred to you that worldly achievement and success might not be at the forefront of a Christians' goals?

I actually met someone a while back who knows Dawkins well. He said that he is one of the nicests gentlemen you'd ever want to meet.

Paula, education and money are not the same thing.

JCO,

Just so we're clear this is not a "personal attack" on Dawkins. It is quite possible that he is great dinner company...
Of course I take it very personally when someone disrespects my personal beliefs and offends my God.

JCO,

I did not say they were.

Studies:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Atheists make up between 8-16% of population but only .21% of prisoners. Either they commit very few crimes or they just get away with everything.

More:

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

Analysis of FBI crime statistics:

http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/Religion-Atheism-and-Crime

This correlates well with what we see in other countries. Where rates of atheism are high, crime rates tend to be either low or very low.

As far as 'disrespect' for your beliefs- are you saying you can't be wrong? You wouldn't want someone to tell you if you were?

All the talk and statistics comparing those who say they "believe" or even profess to being "christians" vs those who say they don't believe are pretty meaningless. An overwhelming majority of people in the US claim to "believe in God", but their behavior doesn't reflect His principles for living. James tells us that even the demons believe that there is one God, and shudder. Belief in and of itself doesn't make a whit of difference in a person's behavior (or salvation). However, I have perceived a difference in behavior between those who are attempting to be true "followers" of Jesus Christ compared to those who aren't (whether they profess to believe or not). Even so, all, whether believers, followers, or un-believers are on the same side of the equation. We ALL are sinners and as such need the grace of God through Jesus Christ to be worthy of spending enternity in His presence.

Erik, Jubal is absolutely correct, and I have made that point to you before. You simply refuse to acknowledge because inherently, your “logical” beliefs are only as valid as your ability to justify them through numbers and studies. However, those are often flawed and skewed to confer a certain viewpoint. This is true for many studies across all matters of social nature, just look at politics and polls. I come from a country where if asked 80-90% of the population will respond they are Christians (Catholic), yet they would not be able to tell you what's in John 3:16.

How does one get to be a follower of Jesus while slashing someone’s throat? It’s completely nonsensical. Bottom line is if you live according to the mandates of our faith you will not commit murder, steal, etc.

I glanced through the research you presented on crime. I am not even going to argue on the merits and validity because I simply don’t have the time. As they stretch to link higher rate of religiosity, not exactly Christianity BTW, to crime, one question arises - do these stats take into consideration for example make up of population, cultural nuances, both as it pertains to States in US as well as countries? How would that not be a factor?

Here is some material for you to digest.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/12/why-religion-matters-even-more-the-impact-of-religious-practice-on-social-stability

I have a question for you - seems to me that among us Christians, the Amish are probably the group that walks the closest in Jesus’ footsteps. Where then is the murder, the rapes, the theft, the divorce, the adultery, the misery?

You can tell me I am wrong in as much as I can tell you. But since neither you nor Dawkins have shown that I am wrong by proving God does not exist, it's a mute point.

I asserted that atheism is correlated with low crime rates. This is exactly what multiple studies show, which I have cited.

The review you cite has nothing to do with this, doesn't mention atheism and crime rate, and in its study of religiosity relies on flawed, 'soft' studies with no control group.

The Amish are a distinct cultural group. You could say the same about Mormons. You can cherry pick any small group, but the data shows them to be the exception that proves the rule.

"How does one get to be a follower of Jesus while slashing someone’s throat? It’s completely nonsensical"
Christianity is nonsensical. Nonsensical people do nonsensical things.

You already said you can't be wrong and don't want your beliefs even questioned because it "offends my God," so I don't see any point in talking to you anymore.

Erik,

The studies you show are compiled and analyzed by atheist organizations. As I previously pointed out the reliability of the data is questionable as are their assumptions which by their own admission fault at any attempt of explanation.

If you look at statistics on Democide (includes genocide, politicide, and mass murder) which by and large is far more consequential you will see that its “atheist” countries/governments that have a clear lead.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

I hardly doubt your claims are correct on the multiple studies contained in the link I sent you. It is far easier to prove how a Christian ministry had a positive impact on their community, including lower crime, than to conclude that someone’s Christian faith called upon them to murder someone.

No, you cannot say the same about Mormons, try not to be disingenuous. And No, again, you’re being illogical since the exception cannot prove the rule because it is directly contradicting the very rule you’re trying to support. In reality what the Amish do demonstrated is what happens in the people group that emulates Jesus’ life the closest.

If the Christian faith is nonsensical to you than I would suggest you live your life and teach your children the following:

Thou shalt have government as a God
Do not Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt murder
Thou shalt commit adultery
Thou shalt steal
Thou shalt covet

Etc…

It’s a free country after all and with government granted rights you might one day find a government that grants you the “rights’ above.

So it sounds like you read the book, Ricky?

I read the God Delusion a few years back, and it is by no means a perfect book on the subject of atheism. (And too much of a focus on biology for my liking). But he makes many valid points on the topic of religion.

Personally, I'm more of a Hitchens fan myself ;)

Christopher Hitchens was one of the Greatest Anti-Religious Thinkers of our time...Just like Stephen Ambrose when it came to Real History.

I loved to watch him on Charlie Rose...

Dawkins is a Buck-Toothed Boob with Bad Hair...

Of course I am Fat, Dumb, Broke Old and Stupid so what do I know?

I will tell you this though: Atheism is just as much a Religion as any Other.

Atheism is A Religious Exercise...

That's the wonderful thing about reason, Grant- it doesn't matter who you are, what you look like, or how much money you have- a valid argument is always valid.

And that, Erik, takes us back to the main premise. I don't believe that everything just exploded out of nothing.

I believe that "In the beginning God created....."

What was your uncaused cause again?

Grant, I believe it was the Higgs Boson.

The Universe goes on Forever--Just like God the Creator.

There are No Boundaries--None. There is no Edge of Space or Limit to His Capabilities...It is All Out There for Every One to See.

From the Pulsar to the Quasar...We keep sending Telescopes? We keep Finding More. We continue to Discover the Vast Mind of God.

Atheism is a Religious Exercise in Spite of all these Proofs Otherwise.

JCO,

I like Hitchens too, in particular when he gets the proverbial verbal spanking from William Lane Craig.

Hitchens is Dead...

JCO-
The Higgs - Boson is not an uncaused cause. It's just another (potential) piece of the puzzle.

They can call it the "god particle", but that doesn't make it God.

The more the scientists learn, the stronger my faith becomes. Far from disproving God; He becomes more evident every time.

But God is not found by reason. He is found by faith and by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Science is great, and if it's enough for you then be happy with it. I suspect that it really isn't though.

You're right Grant, it isn't enough.

Then Come Back Home JCO...

Remember the Golden Ring and the Fatted Calf? Hitchens was a Great Guy and Dawkins is a Boob and I am a Nobody. Less than a Nobody.

But come Back Home to Jesus JCO--He will Never Leave or Forsake You. He did not Leave Us--We Left Him.

"Moving the goalposts"- informal fallacy.

Assertion: Pastor didn't read book too well.

Assertion: Atheism correlated to lower criminality.

Response: You can't prove how the universe began, therefore Jesus.

Makes perfect sense.

Erik Stop This...It is a Lie. No I am not calling you a Liar.

Erik Atheism is a Religius Exercise...You are so Religious in you Atheism you make most Xians look like Slackers.

And I don't hate you for that...But take it From One who has Fallen from Grace.

You are much Better Off in the Bosom of Christ...

Erik -

Maybe it would help if I agreed to the stipulation that there are probably as large a % "good people" who claim to be atheists as there are good people who claim to believe in the teachings of various religions, including Christianity.

I do not mean to attack atheists as people, although I probably sound that way sometimes. I have friends and relatives who are not believers. I love them greatly and I pray that God will change their hearts everyday. But, I also enjoy their company, share in their joys and sorrows and try not to be judgmental. They know how I feel and we respectfully agree to disagree. They won;t change by the force of my will, or even by my love.

The claim of Jesus Christ is that He is the Way, and the only way to the Father. That's not my claim, or Bryant's claim. It is our Lord's claim. It is what got him killed by man then, and it would no doubt get him killed today, if he were to come to us in that same manner. Quite simply, it offends man's sense of self importance. Not everyone is "of his flock".

Gunk, I am well aware that Hitchens is dead. That doesn't disavow our ability to discuss his efforts. The one big difference is of course, he now has all the answers he was seeking.

Erik is free to believe in whatever he wants but he doesn’t extend the rest of us the same courtesy.

So, he lingers on this website with the goal to prove us wrong, and extinguish our belief in God, often patronizing and insulting.

He has been unsuccessful.

However, I have read wonderful, inspiring comments written in response to Erik's. I believe that to be part of a Plan.

I do too:

"Time is what Prevents Everything from Happening at Once..."

It is kind of Interesting the Shakeup in North Korea given the Pastor's remarks...

Honestly I just don't see the Point...Everybody Laughs as long as it isn't Happening to Them.

How do you know he ever claimed such a thing? There were a lot of legendary claims made in antiquity.

John Wheeler died in 2008. Worked with all The Greats of His Time.

Bohr, Oppenheimer and Einstein--Invented the Term "Black Hole..."

I believe Him--It does not all Happen at Once...Unless we have been to a Point where it Did all Happen at Once(and I have Been There)for His Glory.

There comes a Point in Time Erik where we must Face Reality...We cannot Fight the Inevitable Conclusion on a Message Board. We must Face Ourselves--And then we Must Face God.

That is The Rule...That is Life's Rule. Not something I said or You said or Wheeler said.

That is just simply the Rule...But see this Guy Died in 08. That does not exactly Qualify his Statements as Ancients.

Hitchens is Dead--He Died Too. Dawkins is a No-Brainer and I just want us Both to be in the Lord's Presence someday so we can Grin at Each Other.

But? That is up to Him. All those Who Belong to Him will be Given to Him--God has Promised Him That.

I want you to know that I Love You...Would not lift a finger to Hurt You? And want us to Argue Forever/G

Fallacy of the excluded middle (aka false dilemma, aka false choice). Ex: "Either the Bible is all truth or it's all a lie."
"Either you buy that new car today or drive your old piece of junk forever." etc.

I know what you are Saying...I feel the Same Way. You know sometimes God just allows us in Certain Circumstances.

Life Lessons...